What is going on in the working dog world? Do you want to stay informed about the latest developments and insights and do you appreciate the opinions of professionals? Then listen to K9 conversations Working Dog podcast Dutch. You will hear well-known and lesser known people here. Leaders in our field, experts, colleagues, but also people in a supporting role. We receive both Dutch and English-speaking guests. Who are we? We are Patrick Peterson and Minke van den Berg and this is K9 Conversations Working Dog Podcast Dutch.
All the people he had to bite he just bit, and yes it was a ball dog, that's right. That's how I trained him. That's what he did the recall for, that's what he did everything for. I think a dog should be rewarded a lot. If you don't reward a dog, he won't work for you. He works for you because he wants to be rewarded, he needs to get something in return.
Patrick:
Welcome. Here we are again with a new episode of our podcast. Today again with a very special guest, someone who is high on our list of people we would like to speak with. But before we introduce him. Who do we have on the other side of the microphone?
Hennie:
Hennie Bolster. I like that you ask that. Especially since I don't know what this conversation will be about.
(Laughing)
The people in my environment already asked me what I was going to say, what they were going to hear. We’ll see.
Minke:
I actually came into contact with you in a not so straight forward way. I won’t elaborate on that too much here as it is not so interesting to our listeners, but I'm glad I got to know you. I ended up here once with a colleague of yours. He took me to attend an assessment for the KNPV. That was the first time for me that I experienced such an assessment. While I was there I started talking to you and we had a very interesting conversation. You also know each other as colleagues of course, you and Patrick, and that's how the ball started rolling. In a nutshell, that’s how we met.
One thing leads to another and that's how you get into a conversation about all kinds of things. I think we have quite a few starting points to talk about today regarding all things working dog related. But we can also talk about some side branches, that's entirely up to you. So, to answer your question of what we're going to talk about today; you decide that Hennie.
Hennie:
That's very tricky, isn't it?
Minke:
Yes, it’s funny. Don’t you think?
Patrick:
We know each other quite well because of our shared profession. Maybe it's nice for the people who don't know you if you could tell us a bit about yourself. Who is Hennie Bolster? What do you do in daily life and how did you get started in the working dog world?
Hennie:
I'm Hennie Bolster and I am 64 years old. I've been in dog sports for about 43-44 years now. That's where I started. I actually stumbled upon the world of dog sports by chance at the time, I didn’t consciously seek it out. I joined the police force when I was twenty. There I came into contact with dogs and dog training and that intrigued me, I liked that... I decided to join a KNPV club where I did protection work for about four or five years. In those five years I read all the books about dogs I could find. I am not a reading-kind-of-person. I don't like reading at all, but that really had my interest. I read everything I could find about behaviour, that’s how I learned, and that's how I got into dressage. And yes, if you are in the police force and you enjoy working with dogs, you are likely to end up doing protection work at work. In 1984 I bought my first KNPV dog and I started working with it. I trained him and eventually sold him to the police. Then in 1986 I was able to become a dog handler myself. I had been with the police for eight years at the time and had done just about everything. I've been an AE'er, I've been with the riot police, I've worked at the traffic department for half a year, did a lot of patrols on motorcycle... But the heart wants to go where it wants to go and that was working with dogs for me. That's how I started. In my opinion, it’s the best thing there is. I can't imagine anything that can surpass that. If I had to make the choices I made again, I would have done exactly the same.
Minke:
That’s, funny. Does this include all those other things you've done before you became part of the canine unit? As preparation for…?
Hennie:
Yes, exactly. That’s what my advice would be for people who want to join the police and who like dogs too; don't go directly to the dogs.
Minke: Okay, why?
Hennie:
Because what you can do within the police is often very diverse and you need quite a lot of experience. As a dog handler you work all by yourself, so will need the knowledge and practice when you’re out on your own. Then it's beneficial if you did something else for seven or eight years before that time, that you know what else is out there within the police world. I really think that's a vast benefit. That's what I recommend every time.
Patrick:
What do you think makes being a dog handler so great? In my opinion, a lot of people don't really understand that for me it’s more than just a profession.
Hennie:
Working with dogs is not a profession, it's a passion. Your whole life revolves around those dogs. That is true for my life too. My family also revolves around the dogs. When my children were little I went to their sports games and the like, but I also took my dogs into account. That meant that I couldn't always come to watch them play. Then I was working with my dogs or walking them. You can't say it's just a profession. You wouldn't be able to keep it up if it was. It really is a passion, you really have to stand for it every day. Walking a few times a day, cycling, everything. That's why I don't think it's just a job. You have to arrange your whole life around it, and that is difficult for a lot of people. I've always said; Working with dogs is fun, but only if you’re crazy about dogs.
Minke:
Yes.
Hennie:
You can't do it if you're not fond of dogs. That just doesn't exist in my view. The only way you will get that bond with a dog is if you really love the animal. If you are not crazy about the animal you will not bond with it. That is really important.
Minke:
But you already were. You were already into the sport.
Hennie:
As a child I was already very fond of animals. I was six/seven years old and lived in Haaksbergen when I found a young crow in the woods that I raised and trained. He went to school with me too. I put it in front of the window and it just waited outside for me.
Minke:
That’s great.
Patrick:
Beautiful.
Hennie:
[….] At a certain point, my parents were informed by the teacher that I had to leave the crow at home, so I couldn't do anything with it anymore. I really enjoyed working with that animal. Teaching animals something, that really is a passion. That's how I ended up in dog sports and later within the canine unit at the police.
Minke:
Are there any other animal species you have trained? Besides dogs and a crow?
Hennie:
No, haven’t trained any other animals. I don't care much for training other animals either to be honest, but I really like dogs. For me, they’re the best thing in the world.
Minke:
Yes, it’s easy to connect with them. I can image that plays a role too. It fits into your world of experience.
Hennie:
Yes, exactly.
Patrick:
From your role as a dog handler you eventually ended up becoming an instructor for the canine unit within the police. When was that?
Hennie:
I worked in Twente for 28 years and started as a dog handler in Enschede. At one point there came a time when one of the dog handlers could become a sergeant. I applied for it and was chosen for the job. Our instructor, Johan, went a lot around the country. Because I had some experience from the sports world, I helped out quite a few colleagues who came to me with problems they ran into with their dogs. That sort of grew automatically. By helping those people, I found out that I actually really liked doing that. I really enjoy working with people, especially in combination with dogs. I like to teach them things and change things in them, in people but also in dogs. I really enjoy that.
That's how I rolled into it. I was not an official instructor, but I already gave instructions to colleagues, without us ever having made a written agreement about that. But Johan saw that it was going well and he liked what he saw, so he knew he could leave me alone with the others. That's how it grew. Then we got a new chef who decided to formalize it. That's how I became an assistant instructor. At one point I was approached by someone from a security company I knew, about 25 years ago. They were looking for an instructor and asked whether I would like to give instructions to security people with dogs. I agreed to come to have a look a and give my opinion on what and how they were doing things. That also gave me the opportunity to see if I would like the job. I turned out to like it a lot so I did that for about 15-20 years.
(Laughing)
Patrick:
That’s great.
Hennie:
Those people really loved what they were doing. They were very passionate about their work. I did a lot of practical things with those guys and I also taught them what they could or couldn't do as security guards; what they were and were not allowed to do on the street and how to deal with certain situations. That turned out to be a good thing for both sides. Good for us as police, as we would no longer have security guards in Twente who would unexpectedly do inappropriate things, and for those guys as well. They really liked that they received good instruction. And the dogs were nice. It was great to see the them getting better over time. Yes, I loved doing that.
Minke:
Did you have people that were an example to you during that time, people who functioned as role models to you?
Hennie:
I haven't really had people that I would say were role models for me, but I've looked at people a lot. Especially in the sport, I really went everywhere. Not only KNPV, but I also went to the IGP clubs, IPO as it used to be called, just to see how people worked their dogs. Some of those people had been there for years, but there would also be younger trainers that did great things with their dogs. Some of those were real eye openers to me. They inspired me in my own training. You know what I mean?
When I started training dogs myself, I liked to work with the ball. I was very charmed by that way of training, working with the ball, with food. Our instructor within the police at the time didn’t want anything to do with that. He didn’t understand how and why it worked. That's how I got my dog to work. Using positive reinforcement just worked for me and for my dog. But I learned that by watching others.
Minke:
Yes, and by doing it yourself.
Hennie:
That’s right. By applying what I had seen as well.
Minke:
Yes. I saw you do it here too.
Hennie:
But what I do is the result of watching people a lot, of wanting to learn something from someone else. That is actually the same when giving instructions. I always say to colleagues: “You can have everything I know. I have no secrets." I want to pass on the things I know to everyone that is interested. I think that's really important. Within the police in the Netherlands, but also at the KNPV, you see too much reluctance to help each other. That shouldn’t be the case, especially when you are talking about professional institutions such as the police. People have so much to offer, but they have to be willing to share.
Patrick:
Why do you think that is, Hennie, that that isolationist part has become such a significant part of the dog world. Because that's how I feel too. It is quite difficult to share knowledge; people keep things very much to themselves, scared to meet someone who might know more or is better than them. What do you think causes people’s preference for not sharing their knowledge with others?
Hennie:
I think it’s born from some kind of stubbornness. People don't really want to change. I must admit that in Overijssel, where I started in the sport, we did a lot together. Even if in preparation for championships. The group I was in consisted of a lot of men who had already been Dutch champions multiple times. If there were people who would be competing in the championships, we looked after each other. That also applied to a few guys from other clubs. We helped each other with problems. There was virtually no competition in that regard. We practiced together for the championships, we used each other's helpers and were also allowed to use each other's equipment. That was normal for us, but in the Netherlands that is not normal. Fortunately, that has grown a bit in recent years, but before that it was always a competition. It was pretty much the same within the police department. I sometimes have the impression that people are afraid that they will be outstripped by others and that that fear is the biggest bottleneck, the biggest motivation not to share among one another. I regret that. In my view you can learn something from anyone if you want to.
Patrick:
Yes, because you really achieved something in the sport. You have been Dutch champion four times. Is that correct?
Minke:
Yes, that’s something I wanted to ask you as well.
Patrick:
Was that in PH-I? PH-II? In multiple programs?
Hennie:
In 2005 I first became champion with my Bo. Back then I participated in the championships for both object guarding and PH-II in one weekend. I became the champion in both. That was quite hard, also for the dog. He had to do object guarding on Friday and PH-II on Sunday, so he had quite an intense weekend. And it was not nothing for me either, you need to be able to make switch gears yourself as well. The following year I had to defend the title for PH-II with him. By that time he had become a service dog and I had to I ask permission from my instructor to participate. I had been in the field with that dog a few times that year, so we had to work pretty hard to get him up to standard again and keep him there. It worked out well for me, but it does take a lot of time and energy. I became champion again that year. After that I didn't compete with him anymore. In 2008 I became Dutch champion PH-I with a son of his.
Minke:
This might be a stupid question, but "up to standard", what do you mean by that?
Hennie:
Within the KNPV it is all about points. You have to get a high score for a chance to win the championships. A dog that works in the field always gets a little rougher on the edges, you can't always prevent that. In addition, the experiences he has had have made him smarter. That makes it more difficult to keep him on the level required for the KNPV championships. I had to put quite a lot of energy and time into that and had to think hard about what I would and wouldn't do with him. In practice, that is sometimes difficult. For regular PH-II you have a reclining helper. The dog is not allowed to bite the person who is lying down. Instead, he should stay there and bark at him. I had two or three cases in the field that year where he found people lying on their stomachs or on their backs. Then he actually did the same as during training; he stood nicely on top of them and fortunately didn't bite. But if he bites in such a moment and he’s not corrected for it, then you have a problem. Especially with dogs like that, they learn a lot from such instances, to your detriment if you still want to do KNPV with them.
Minke:
Or if you want to participate in the championships.
Hennie:
Yes, exactly. Then it becomes difficult. Fortunately, he didn't bite. He kept it pretty neat. I liked that very much. A man who just lays still doesn't need to be bitten as far as I am concerned.
Minke:
No. So that was an advantage?
Hennie:
Yes, absolutely.
Minke:
I'm not in the KNPV at all, so this is probably a piece of cake for you, but is that still seen as an advantage?
Hennie:
For us as police officers?
Minke:
Yes.
Hennie:
Yes, I think so. There is a reason why we buy police dogs from the KNPV. The dogs have to work quite independently within the KNPV. They have to do a lot by themselves. As a police officer, you benefit from that. Our service dogs have to make quite a lot of decisions. If those dogs are then taught not to bite someone who is sitting still, it will be an advantage for our work, because that is what we prefer. But they remain animals of course. You are always dependent on situations and circumstances, so you are never one hundred percent in control. However, it is nice if dogs are at least able do that perfectly, we can benefit from that. This actually manifests itself on two levels. On the one hand, the dog is somewhat independent, it is able to do many things on its own. On the other hand, he learned things that you as a police handler can take advantage of; he shouldn’t bite people who are standing still or lying down. That's nice.
Minke:
Yes, that’s a good example.
Patrick:
If you now look at the old certification within the organization, would you say that it had a lot in common with the current PH-I program? Many parts, including the outing and the “stokstellen”, are almost the same. Even though these days you can see it’s changing more and more, PH-I remains PH-I. There have actually not been any changes in the program in recent years, except with regard to the criteria for the indication. Additionally, the surveillance dog is increasingly being certified in a different way. What are your thoughts on that?
Hennie:
As a police officer, I think that's great. I have always said that I prefer a program that is useful for us as police officers. One that we benefit from and which is not aimed at the KNPV. The KNPV focuses on sport, that is something different and it’s important that you separate those two. I taught my dogs both programs. That was quite easy because PH-I and the training service dogs get are not that different from each other in many respects. A lot of the exercises from both programs used to be about the same. In principle, it’s still possible, our program is not that different from that of the KNPV. Obedience is still obedience, outing remains outing. In that respect they are very much the same. Despite the fact that we are now allowed to use our break stick, I try to teach the dogs to out on cue as much as possible and try to avoid using that tool... If you have to use a thing like that consistently, you can create a lot of problems for yourself. So I think it's a good thing that the police have said that they will go back to the practical program and focus less on the work of the KNPV. I am in favor of that.
Patrick:
Do you still see in certain situations that… and I will marginalize it for a moment, but that certain sport dogs are so worked towards a championship for instance, that it is sometimes difficult to teach those dogs to take some more liberties afterwards? We have talked about this before. I don’t want to give people the wrong impression, I am not in favor of an anti-KNPV program because I am not anti-KNPV at all. I think it's a really nice program, but the critical question I only occasionally ask myself, and which I sometimes ask other people too, is whether the average KNPV dog by default constitutes a good service as well. You can of course look at this in several ways, but if you consider that a dog working in the field has to show a lot of initiative, while sports programs are usually bound by certain rules and scoring systems, could it be that this doesn’t always go hand in hand?
Hennie:
Yes, that’s definitely possible. Not all dogs that score highly within the KNPV program will or even have to be good service dogs. That’s just not true. It's not without reason that we test dogs before they come in. We do this because we know that not every dog that we initially think we want is suitable for our work. There have been multiple times where I tested dogs that did super well in the KNPV and got a lot of points there, but that didn't pass our test program.
Minke:
Why do you think that is?
Hennie:
It is often related to the courage of a dog, but also sometimes to the searching part. The disadvantage of getting dogs from the KNPV is that they learn to search a small area. Often a lot of pressure is put on the dog; it has to do it because the handler wants it to. At the police we actually would like the dog to take the initiative in this. As a handler you are not supposed to break into the work of the dog. As you can imagine, that doesn’t always go hand in hand. I am very much in favor of buying good dogs from within the KNPV, but not all service or patrol dogs have to be KNPV dogs. The same is true for the police canine unit. We now also buy a lot of very young dogs that receive the basic training from us and actually learn to work according to what we’d like to see. We teach them all the things we would like them to be able to do; the indication, locating, civilian biting... All things considered, we have a larger interest in that. It will take quite a lot of time and energy to teach a KNPV dog to bite civilians if it has learned to strictly adhere to the rules of that program at all times. That is often underestimated. A lot of KNPV people think that biting comes naturally to dogs, but they won’t just do that if you haven't taught them properly. You certainly have a lot of work to do if you want to change something in a dog that has been strictly taught to do or not to do certain things. So yes, it can conflict with each other but it doesn't have to. That depends a bit on the dog and the courage of the dog.
Patrick:
If you were in charge of the KNPV, would there be elements in the program that you would change? I do not mean administratively within the KNPV, but in the program itself. Very little has changed in the course of its existence. I still enjoy going to an assessment or competition and I still think it's a nice program, but certain things are perhaps somewhat outdated.
Hennie:
Yes, we as the police have also discussed this with the KNPV. An example is the guarding element in the program and the way that is structured. If you have to test eight dogs at an assessment and they all have to lie down for three minutes, you will all be standing there waiting for half an hour. Eight times three, then you have lost quite a few minutes. Fortunately, that has changed. Everyone was slightly fed up with that. The audience, the helpers, us… So things do change, but very gradually. It remains difficult because you have a program that actually is great fun for a sportsman. Of course, in the details you can change things in there, but you have to ask yourself if it’s worth it. The KNPV is not only there for the police. Do you want to completely change a great sports program?
I think it is good that we have now relaxed the criteria for the indication in the KNPV program. The indication is of course wonderful for the police, but training their dog to become a police dog is not always the intention of the handlers of good KNPV dogs. Many KNPV members do not specifically want to sell their dog(s) to the police or to the army, they often keep the dogs. It really is a sports program. You have to take that into account. I don't think many people would be happy if you were to change everything within the KNPV. You can change some of the details, like recently happened with the indication, but not the program as a whole. We as the police have an interest in those changes, but it is also good for the KNPV. The program should adapt and evolve as needs change and new information becomes available. This is especially true when talking about the animal friendliness of training. There is always a bit of pressure on a dog when you teach them to fetch / hold and that is a shame. When done properly, you don't need to use that pressure for creating the indication. When they’re a puppy, you can teach a dog that very quickly, and in a much more animal-friendly way.
Patrick:
To be honest, the KNPV dog is one of the most desired dogs out there. Not only within the Dutch police, but also abroad. Both in America and any other country I know of. If you look at the raison d’être of the KNPV in relation to how people generally look at animal welfare and training nowadays, wouldn't you be in favor of changing certain things in this respect? I understand that, like you said, if you train purely for the sport it matters less what the program looks like. But the KNPV is aging. As unfortunate as it is, attracting young helpers is a real challenge these days. When I became a member of the KNVP I was told to put on a suit, keep my mouth shut and walk. There was no discussion. If you didn’t like that, you were simply shown the door. I think it was no different with you. Today, on the other hand, they are grateful if someone even wants to put on the suit.
Hennie:
It’s true that that is a problem within the KNPV. A lot of clubs have trouble finding helpers, they hardly get any new (young) members. When I started in the KNPV in 1979, the organization had about 13,000 members. The KNPV now only has around 4600 members. The number of people involved in the sport has dropped significantly. This is also noticeable when looking at the number of dogs that are on offer to purchase. It is much more difficult to get good dogs, also because they are in high demand worldwide. Dogs from the KNPV are sold to all kinds of places these days. The KNPV as a program is held in high esteem worldwide. In America, Brazil, the Czech Republic… In all the places I’ve been they know and love the program. Then it makes sense that people get many of their dogs from there. They know they are buying a certain quality. That's just how it is. You don't see that in any other sport dog program. I think it has to do with it as well. But I do agree with you and I think things will change within the KNPV. We have discussions about that within the club too; why do you have to go so hard on dogs? The complaints about the use of the stick are also on the table again. Within the IGP, this has already been removed from the program and the KNPV is currently debating the issue, so it is likely that there will be a change there. Whether that’s the right thing to do is questionable as far as I am concerned. I understand the reasoning but I also think it's a pity. Certain qualities that we want to see in a dog are taught this way and are visible in the dog’s response to the use of the stick during the exercise.
Patrick:
But doesn't that also have to do with the visibility of what happens within the KNPV for the larger public? If you tell someone literally that there is a sports program where a dog is beaten with a stick then I understand that this shocks people and that they disagree with it. However, they usually don't know or understand that this ‘stick’ is a dried willow clove that actually already splits into pieces during the movement.
Hennie:
The dog doesn’t feel much of it, if it feels anything at all.
Minke:
No, especially not when they’re in drive.
Hennie:
Especially in the high drives that our dogs get into, they don't feel those blows. For such a dog in that situation it is like you’re hitting it with a twig, that's all it really is. But to an outsider it seems a lot worse. That is what we are concerned about within the KNPV and what the police also has to deal with, we are not open enough in that respect You have to involve people more in what it is you do. If you do that, you will reap the benefits from it. I think that if we had invested more in doing just that ten/fifteen years ago, also within the police; in explaining to people and genuinely showing them what we do, we would have had far fewer problems in that area. The problems about the Teletac, the problems about the use of the stick in IGP… I don’t think this has anything to do with animal welfare. Rather, it is related to the fact that people don't know what it's for.
Minke:
I think you’re right.
Hennie:
That’s what it is all about.
…
Minke:
Okay, Hennie, we've talked about a lot of things, also outside of what we recorded. Unfortunately, this included topics that we later thought we should have included. Where we ended with the recording was when we were talking about this situation we’re in where the general public knows very little about the backgrounds of, for example, the exercises that are done within the KNPV and the police. Now I wondered, as a civilian, what would your approach be if you were in charge? If you wanted to make this more known to the general public, how would you go about it? Do you have any ideas about that?
Hennie:
Yes, I do have ideas about that, sure. I think that as KNPV and as police we should be much more open about what we do. Show them how we treat the dogs. Tell people why we do certain things and why we do things in a particular way. You have to explain it to people. If you do that and you show them how it works, nine times out of ten the response you’ll get from people is understanding. I am sure of that. If we had done that 15-20 years ago, we wouldn't have had all that Teletac talk that is going on at the moment. The Teletac is a great tool which has now been abolished because of an incorrect understanding of its use. I think that's a shame because it can be a very efficient and effective tool in training. Talk about animal abuse in this situation is not accurate in my view, those two things do not necessarily correlate.
Minke:
No, but that is the image that it is associated with nowadays. In the general opinion, using such a device is animal cruelty. There are very few people in the dog training world I'm involved in who think it's a good tool to use. That is without me inflicting a judgment on it myself. You just told a nice story related to this outside of the recording. Would you care to repeat that? It was about someone who was staunchly against the use of the Teletac. You talked to her about it. What happened there?
Hennie:
Within the police they wanted someone to take a look at the training of service dogs and possibly suggest some changes. Someone was appointed in order to put all of that on paper. Around that time, I received an unexpected call from a colleague of mine that I used to work with. He used to be a dog handler and is now active in everything animal-related within the police. He works for the animal police at the moment. She also came from that department and was firmly against the Teletac. My colleague asked me if I would be willing to tell and show her something about use of the Teletac because he couldn't get through to her. I agreed to meet with her and she came here to the training center. With her she brought a paper with 50-60, maybe 70 questions. We first spent the better part of three or four hours in here discussing the questions she had written down, but I couldn't get through to her. Once we finished talking, she was still firmly against the use of the Teletac. Then we went outside to work with the dogs. I explained to her that with three of the six dogs I had needed to use a Teletac for a few small things, especially for the recall which is usually the bottleneck in our work. I used it for a few other exercises as well every now and then, because they link nicely with the recall and can sometimes be combined. So, I had used the Teletac seven or eight times that day but only one of those times had she noticed.
Minke:
Only once?
Hennie:
Yes. I had told her before to watch carefully how I used the thing and how the dogs reacted to it. I asked her if she could tell me afterwards how often she thought I had used the Teletac and how professional or unprofessional she thought I had handled it. Coincidentally, during the recall a dog refused to come. The moment it ended up in the net I pressed the Teletac. I had it on a higher level then, at 35, and the dog yelped briefly before it returned to me. After we had finished she thought I had only used the thing once. I told her that that was not true, that I had used it seven or eight times, but that she simply hadn’t noticed. That is actually the goal, that is how the Teletac should be used. When you use it on a dog, it should automatically understand that he has to listen. If they know that, you usually only need to use it for a short period of time. In such situations the Teletac does work very well and you won’t have any problems. This is what I'm talking about. As far as I'm concerned, you can bring in people from the Ministry tomorrow and tell and show them how I handle the Teletac. How I handle service dogs. Then you won’t have those problems either, you won’t create them. If everyone uses the Teletac in that way, they all should be allowed to use it in my opinion.
Patrick:
It has to do with a lack of education. People don't really understand what the tool is and what it does. How it works and what its psychological and physiological effect is on a dog. I think that's where things derailed.
Hennie:
Yes. I think things have gone wrong not in the least because of the (lack of) knowledge people have about the Teletac, but also about dogs. It goes without saying that you need to know what you are doing. You need to know how to train a dog, how a Teletac works and what it does to a dog. I think if we had educated people about this fifteen/twenty years ago, we wouldn't have had all these issues. Then we would have had a very effective tool that we could still use today. But because of the excesses of some people this option has been taken of the table.
Minke:
In the conversation just outside of recording, we also talked about your process in using rewards. I think there is certainly something to be said for using the Teletac. I even saw behavioural therapists use the Teletac when it was still allowed. I don’t know if that’s sometimes still the case, but what is important is that you know what you are doing.
Hennie:
It should be used professionally.
Minke:
Yes. You indicated that when you got into the sport, you were one of the few who enjoyed using a ball in training. That's what you mentioned before. How do you deal with that now? Because when I was here during an assessment I saw some great things, with a ball, with some pieces of food…
Hennie:
I can elaborate on that. A dog does 90 percent for a reward. He works for a reward, he does that for you, but he also expects to get something in return. You can correct a dog once, but that correction must be balanced by at least ten to fifteen rewards. Dogs will do a lot more for a reward. If you correct a dog and he doesn't get a reward afterwards, a pet on his head or some food, then that dog will think twice the next time it is in a similar situation. You can correct it but it will repeat the behaviour as not doing so doesn’t actually bring him anything. I said the same thing when we were talking just now. When I started in the sport, I only did decoy work for the first four-five years, four to six times a week. During those moments, I watched the handlers and their dogs and how they interacted. What I saw didn't always make me happy. Afterwards, I sometimes asked handlers why they did what they did, and also told them if I thought it could be done differently. I got into quite a few discussions because of that, but that was actually a good thing too. I think both can benefit from genuine discussions. Such dialogue is good for the people involved but also for the animals. When I bought my first puppy within the club they told me not to do anything with it for the first year. Let him go, they said. Just do a little bitework and let him grow. My wife had just given birth to our first child who was three or four months old at the time. Back then I thought to myself: “If I let my daughter grow up until she is three or four years old and only then start raising her, then I will definitely be too late.”
(Laughter)
And that's what I thought about my puppy. I wanted to teach my dog things from an early age, that’s what I had also read in the books about dogs. Like I mentioned before, I'm really not a reader, but I loved reading about dogs. I wanted to teach my puppy from the start what I did and didn't want him to do. He couldn't bite my pants for instance, I didn't want that. And when I would be teaching him to bite, I also wanted him to be able to release. I used a piece of food or a ball for that, or I made it into a trading game. I was sometimes laughed at for doing that at the time, among others by the first instructor I had when I became a dog handler. At that time, I only did decoy work. He just laughed at me; “You with your balls, that dog is never going to bite a civilian.” Well, he did, it was a game to him, and a game I had taught him well. I will never forget the time that we had a practical exercise in a bus. Of the eight service dogs that participated, three were not biting the decoy. They entered the bus and just laid down. The slippery floor and the movement of the bus made them uncertain what to do. But my fifteen-sixteen-month-old puppy just jumped right in and went straight to the decoy. He didn't care. After all, he was already familiar with the situation. I took that dog everywhere including with me on public transport; trains, buses... I often took him with me to the train station and in a train. He didn’t know any better. He bit all the people he had to bite, and yes, he was a ‘ball dog’, that's right. That's how I trained him. That's what he did the recall for, that's what he did everything for.
I think dogs should be rewarded a lot. If you don't reward a dog, he won't work for you. He works for you because he wants to be rewarded, he needs to get something in return. When you use a correction, it is absolutely necessary that you also reward him ten to fifteen times for the correct behaviour he shows, because then it really has a chance to sink in. A dog does 90% for a reward and only 10% for correction. That's just how it is. And that reward is sometimes forgotten. I've been a full-time instructor for seven years now and that's what I'm really hammering at here. I am very critical of that. I'm a big asshole about that. I can be very critical of people. I always tell them; “You are very critical of your dog, but I am critical of you.” And I think that's how you should deal with it. It is not my intention to blacken anyone, I just want to give people something that really is of interest to them.
Minke:
Do you think the general public is aware of that? I am, but I've developed a fascination with your work after I've gotten to know several people from within the police force over time. That’s also connected to my background in detection. That's how I ended up here and I started to become interested in what people like you do. But do you think the average person knows that there are units that predominantly focus on rewarding the dogs and that mainly work as you described just now? Do you think people know that?
Hennie:
No, I don’t think people are aware of that, but the police are not open enough about that either. That's what I meant with the story I told about my colleague from the animal police. We as police should be more active in trying to engage and educate people about what we do. The KNPV has already made a lot of progress in this respect. They already organize days when they go to campsites to give demo’s. In every department they have a group that does that, Demo teams that go everywhere to explain and show people why we train our dogs the way they do. The police are not good at that, they never were. I always say: "Let people come". Take them on your journey, show them your training. That will only make us, as an organization, better.
Patrick:
They say the youth holds the future. We have been to the working dog professional training ourselves. They had asked us if we wanted to give a demo, not the police but my own company. The first question we asked the students was what it was they thought of when thinking about a police dog. Not unexpectedly violence and hard-handed training were high on that list, that was the image they had. We then gave a presentation and eventually also a demo with a dog in which we also showed the biting work. I invited them to pet the dog while it was biting. There was some reluctance from the group at first, but in the end they did it as I asked. Once the demo was over, I got down on my knees, I let the dog jump into my arms and I started cuddling with him. I got the whole class to stand around me and told them they could pet and cuddle the dog if they liked to. Their mouths fell open as they watched me; “Is this how you train a dog?” “Yes,” I said. “This is how you train a dog.” This is the ‘modern police dog’. The stereotypical police dog from back in the days was not considered a social dog. Social dogs didn’t bite, those who did were supposed to be the ‘dangerous’ ones. Police dogs nowadays, well we already showed it there… With showing that, we created so much understanding and goodwill that people also admitted that they understood that if a dog bites the suit, which entails a certain level of violence, it must be strictly under control. That means that there has to be an occasional correction. These days the trend is to think dogs should only be rewarded. We can ignore unwanted behaviour, but we prefer not to talk about correction. However, correction is an inherent part of the learning process, both in dogs and in humans. Corrections or interventions on certain behaviours are part of life.
Hennie:
That's true. I used to read that in those books too, we learn ten percent from correction and ninety percent from reward. That reward must have a lot of value, but there needs to be a correction on the other side of it as well. If a dog does something wrong, he must know that what he does is not allowed. You can't make that clear to him that with a cookie or a ball, you will need to correct him for it. Of course, there are different severities of correction.
Minke:
There is such a great deal of nuance and individual differences in what a dog experiences as correction or reward. Those are also things to keep in mind.
Hennie:
Taking a dog away from a decoy is already a correction.
Minke:
Yes!
Patrick:
A very severe correction even.
Hennie:
Yes, exactly. A lot of people don't understand that. But training using only negative punishment takes more time. You shouldn't underestimate that. Working without Teletac for example means that you have to invest more time in dogs, and our managers don't always give us the time we need to do so.
Minke:
So, you are actually torn between those two sides.
Hennie:
I do feel like that sometimes, yes. I am in such a situation at work right now actually. I must be able to get a few dogs ready for assessment in the foreseeable future. That is quite difficult. Especially if certain tools are no longer available to you.
Minke:
Do you also keep track of the training you do with your students?
Hennie:
Yes, I keep track of what I've done throughout the day. I put down exactly which colleagues I worked with, what exercises we did, where things went wrong and what I did in order to solve those problems. Something that is often underestimated is the amount of time that goes into keeping track of all that. It’s a lot of extra work. It takes me about after an hour and a half to get to work. I start at eight in the morning and go home around three o'clock which means I'm not home before half past four / five o'clock. By that time, I still have to spend another hour behind my laptop to write everything down. Well, you can imagine what my day looks like. During a normal day I work for almost twelve hours. People sometimes forget that...
Patrick:
Additionally, your own dog demands some attention as well. You will also want to make it work for a while.
Hennie:
Exactly, and in the evening I usually go to see the dogs at the club too. It is very much underestimated how much energy and time all of these things together take. I think it’s a wonderful thing to do because it’s a passion of mine, but I do understand that other instructors who might not feel the same way about it may consider it as a burden sometimes.
Minke:
As we’re talking about it now, what does a random day in Hennie's working life look like? You just described it a little bit, but in some more detail?
Hennie:
My alarm goes off at half past six in the morning. I live in the countryside and have a few dogs, five in total. They need to be walked of course, so I typically start with that. When I'm done I usually take the two dogs that belong to the service to work with me.
Minke:
All five Malinois?
Hennie:
No, not at the moment. I do have two Malinois bitches. One of them is already older, fifteen and a half years now. She really is becoming an old lady now. My younger bitch is fifteen months old. In addition, I have a German Shepherd of seven months and both a Dutch Shepherd and a Malinois from the service. The Malinois I just handed over to a colleague last week.
After I walk the dogs, I take a shower and eat my breakfast, then I drive to work at half past six. I'm usually here by a quarter to eight/eight o'clock, depending on the traffic. At a quarter past eight/half past eight my colleagues come in too, we drink a cup of coffee and then we start.
Minke:
And then, how do you start? What do you do?
Hennie:
That depends a bit. The last eight weeks I happened to be very busy with getting a group ready for the assessment. I had six boys that I had to prepare for the exam and if you have to do that alone it is quite a lot of work. Then my whole day consists of assessment-oriented work.
Minke:
Do you practice certain exercises that are required for the examination during those days? Exercises they need to succeed in in order to pass the test?
Hennie:
Yes, as dog handlers we have to pass an exam with our dogs once every two years. There are certain requirements that we have to meet which have to do with obedience, searching capabilities and biting. If you don’t meet these requirements, you will no longer be allowed to work in the streets. As you can imagine, it is therefore quite important for my colleagues that they pass the test. After all, almost every police officer prefers to continue working in the streets, that is why most became a police officer in the first place. So there is quite a bit of pressure on passing that test for my colleagues, and also on the instructor. When I have to pass the exam myself or when I have to work with a dog in the streets I am not as nervous as when those boys have to take their exams.
Minke: I understand that.
Hennie:
That’s a completely different thing. If I have to take the test myself, I am in control. That is a lot easier for me. But everything you've done before then, you're handing it over that day when they are going to be assessed.
Patrick:
What people often don't understand is that you put a lot of yourself and your love for the trade into it, at least that's how I experience it. I recognize what you say, the love for people in combination with their dog; coaching them and lifting them to a higher platform. There's so much of yourself in it. I don't think that is always fully understood. Like you, I am always nervous when my handlers have to take their exams. Everything you put into it must all come out at that specific moment.
Hennie:
That’s true. Some managers sometimes underestimate that. I think our work as an instructor is sometimes underestimated. People think it’s easy but that’s not necessarily the case. As an instructor you work with both people and dogs so you have to be able to understand and handle both of them. That is not always easy.
Patrick:
I am sometimes told that I shouldn’t complain because what I do is is a hobby of mine as well. However, that doesn’t quite cover it in my opinion. What we do really is a profession.
Hennie:
It happens to be a hobby, but it is not a hobby for me to deal with people. I really experience that as work, but that’s also part of it. I prefer to work with dogs myself, but I don't get to do that very much here.
Patrick:
Yes, that’s true.
Hennie:
I have two dogs from the service, but I really don't get around to training them much.
Minke:
You are helping others instead.
Hennie:
I have been working for this organization for four months now and I would like to familiarize people with the service and give them the knowledge they’ll need when they’re out in the streets. That's my passion, that's what I do it for. Then you sometimes forget yourself. I sometimes forget my dogs, I'm very honest about that. That's just how it is. But I like it. It’s no wonder that I still do this. I could have stopped at 64 but I didn't because I just really enjoy doing what I do.
Patrick:
And now you're going to quit in four months time? I think the organization will lose an incredible resource of knowledge and skills, I'm sure of that. If you look at what the new certification will look like, then, among other things, the recall will be removed, the main reason being that the use of an electronic device, the Teletac, is no longer allowed. This is supposed to be an open question without me giving my opinion, but don't you think that we as an organization are running away from the problem at hand? Shouldn't we invest more in quality than in preventing problems?
Hennie:
Yes, that’s true. I think they should. I've asked that question too. We have all been informed about the new certification, you probably have too. I also asked this question then; Have there been so many problems in practice with the use of dogs in that area? Instances where the dog was used from a distance and which had caused problems? That people had to recall a dog multiple times, that he didn't listen, or that problems had arisen due to bites? No, he couldn't remember. Then I wonder, why change it? From my perspective, that wasn’t necessary at all. By changing the certificate you choose the easiest way. You could also have chosen to give those guys more time. In that extra time you can provide them with more knowledge, you can teach them more things. Of course it can still go wrong. Last time a boy I had taught also failed the test, but you do try to do everything you can by working in a proper manner and by using the right reward to try and get that dog to do what you want it to. The knowledge on how to do that is not equally well-understood everywhere yet. The police could have spent a lot more time on educating people in this area. I have internalized the knowledge I have on my own. I've never had an instructor from within the police department teach me how to train dogs.
Minke:
Are there more people like you who still do that?
Hennie:
Yes, there are still many more like me within the police force.
Minke:
Good.
Hennie:
Fortunately, yes, but it is getting less. That will be a problem. In addition, you shouldn’t underestimate the fact that nowadays there aren’t many instructors who have trained dogs within the KNPV themselves. I maintain that it is very important that you know how to train a young dog if you want to be an instructor within the police force or anywhere. You have to know how to teach him things and what to look at, because if you run into problems, you have to go back to basics. If you don't know those basics you have a problem. This lack of experience will cause trouble in the future I'm afraid. This is not always recognized by our managers, but it will. I have told them that as well. You have to teach instructors something. You have to give them something. That's really important. It's just a shame that rarely happens.
Patrick:
Besides your work as an instructor, you have another passion, giving seminars in America. How did you end up there? How did that come about?
Hennie:
That actually happened quite by chance. I had already become champion of the Netherlands three years in a row, once in PH-II and object guarding and twice in PH-II, when I received an email from a colleague dog handler in the beginning of 2008. The email was from Jeff Meyer, a dog handler from Denver who also has a well-known dog magazine there; Hits K9. Hits is one of the largest magazines in America and the largest dog-related magazine. He wanted to do an interview with me because I had won the championship a few times, was a member of the KNPV and was also a police officer. He had a few questions about how I combined all that. He was due to come to the Netherlands in September and wanted to talk to me in person. I agreed to that. Coincidentally, I went for the assessment in May of that year and I was allowed to go to the Dutch championship for PH-I, which I also won that year. The day after the championships he came to my house and conducted the interview.
My wife has a half-brother in America, we were just about to go there for the first time. She had only heard of his existence six months before, so it was all very coincidental. My wife and he had been in contact, they had already visited us once and we would go to America to visit them this time. He asked me where my brother-in-law lived so I told him he lived near Los Angeles, Riverside, about 50 miles/80 kilometers from the city. “Would you like to go to LEPD K9 when you’re there?” he asked. I told him that I thought it would be nice but that I would actually be on vacation. My wife immediately said “Hennie, of course you should go, it will be fun”. He could organize that I could go there for two or three days, he said. A day later I received an email from a colleague from him from Los Angeles who would pick me up once I was there. He gave me his name and phone number and told me to call him when I was in America. That's what I did, and after a 4.5-hour drive - really, it took us 4.5 hours to drive 80 kilometers - we arrived where we needed to be. It was very busy in the streets. I had called him just before our arrival that I still had ten minutes to drive, so when I got there at 2.15 pm he was waiting for me at the gate. He said, "I'll show you around first because all my colleagues are doing sports at the moment." The dog handlers there start at 2 p.m. and start their day with two hours of exercise as part of their work. “That’s great”, I said, “I wish I was able to do that” He showed me around the city first. Los Angeles consists of several counties, each of which has its own training group. We visited several of them that day. He also wanted to show me the place where they get the dogs from. Once on the road I thought I recognized the surroundings. We drove back to my brother-in-law. I used to go for a five-kilometer run in the morning while I was there. During those runs I always heard a lot of dogs barking, but I had never been able to see where that came from, it was on the other side of the highway. I said to him: “Look, my brother-in-law lives there”. We were already close to his house at that time. That man's friend was already 73 years old when I got there. What an incredible guy that was! I've had whole conversations with that man. He certainly was a professional who really knew about dogs. It was wonderful to see how he still tested the dogs himself at the age of 73. Two-three days later I went to his son to help him with some narcotics dogs. That was great fun to do.
Once back in Los Angeles, they started training around 4/4:30 PM. I had introduced myself to the group and their instructors beforehand and had sat down to watch them train. Nearby were a number of very big cars with dogs in them, all very American. And barking and ranting the dogs did. One dog after another, handler and dog entered the field. Each and every one hanging tightly in the line. Once on the field, the dog was supposed to go to the decoy and bark, he was not allowed to bite him. However, I could already see from the behaviour of that dog that that was not what was going to happen!
(Laughter)
I didn’t believe any of that. And I was right. The moment he let go of the dog, bam, he was stuck in the leash. At one point he managed to press the button on the Teletac, but the dog didn't care, it bit away and it just bit again. What they were doing didn't work at all. A little later, after he had finished, someone else came onto the field, also with a dog on Dutch commands. I was looking at that second handler and he did exactly the same thing as the previous one had. It did not at all go as expected. At one point, that first handler came to me. He had googled my name and found out that I had been Dutch champion a few times and was also a policeman. He asked if I could help him with his dog. I said; “Whoa, stop. You have four instructors standing there. I'm not going to interfere with that. I'm here by invitation. I am grateful that I can take a look at what you’re doing here, but I would like to leave it at that. Those people standing there are the experts. I don't want to interfere with that." However, by then he was already walking towards his instructors. Not even five minutes later all four of them came walking towards me. “Can you please help us with this dog?” they asked. The dog came from the Netherlands, but they couldn't manage to get him to do what they wanted. I asked them if it was an honest dog. According to them it was. I was allowed to take him over for a moment so I did. He didn't want to sit right away, so I corrected him briefly with the leash. Someone immediately walked over. If I could please stop doing that. That was not allowed in America. It was no longer necessary anyway; the dog was already sitting. In my opinion that was very hypocritical of them. They use the Teletac quite a lot and without hesitation but a small correction with the lead was not allowed. It didn’t matter, that dog did exactly what I wanted. He heeled neatly, he sat down next to me. Within fifteen minutes I had him barking at a distance of thirty meters. Those Americans stood there with their mouths open. That resulted in me giving instruction there all day.
(Laughter)
That hadn’t been my intention. I had come there to observe their training.
Minke:
You were on a holiday.
(Laughter)
Hennie:
Yes, I was on vacation. I had come there to see how they were doing things. I would have liked to have been able to see other things too, but at the time I didn't get the chance. That's also what I told them that evening. I really I enjoyed helping them, but I would also have liked to see how they did the rest of their work. I might have been able to learn from that. That's what I had come to America for after all. When we went out for dinner that night, their lieutenant also came by. He introduced himself and said: “I've heard very good stories about you from my instructors, would you be willing to tell us something about the KNPV tomorrow? What your relationship is with it and what we might learn from the program?” I agreed to that. I happened to have brought a CD with footage of some of my work for my brother-in-law. I picked it up and then I quickly put together a PowerPoint in the evening, or actually at night around 02.00 am…
(Laughter)
Minke:
You still wanted to make an impression.
Hennie:
If I do something I like to do it well. I don't like doing things halfheartedly, so I made a PowerPoint in which I put something about the KNPV and a few videos of my work. In addition, I also had some footage about how we build up the training of the dogs. I had brought my laptop and I happened to have a few videos of my puppies still on it, which I was able to use for that. I mixed that up a bit. Just basic dressage. The next morning, I gave a presentation of about four hours. We had started at about two o'clock again and were finished by six o'clock. That was all just theory, and I'm not a theory person at all.
Minke:
(laughing) I was just about to say, I just heard something else about that from you.
Hennie:
No, I'm very honest when I say that I don't like that at all. Once back home in the Netherlands, I received an email from another American, a policeman from New York, asking if I wanted to give a seminar in America. He told me that he had heard great stories from Los Angeles. Those men all know each other. Despite the size of the country, the service dog world there is also very small. He wanted me to tell to his people and a few interested citizens what I had taught in Los Angeles about the KNPV before. In the following January, which was in 2009, I gave my first seminar. Three police officers and nine civilians were present. I talked about the KNPV and also a little bit about civilian work, a little localizing, a little […] for the police officers, I wanted to show them that. They were so enthusiastic. Afterwards, all three officers that were present invited me to visit their own unit the following year. That's how I started giving more seminars there; it grew sort of organically. The boy who asked me to come out there the first time is now a good friend of mine. He arranges everything in America for me, I don't have to worry about any of that. The only thing we have to arrange ourselves are the plane tickets. He arranges the rest, the hotel, the seminars and the like. I think it’s great fun to do. I've been doing this for fifteen/sixteen years now and the nice thing is that you now see a lot of people who follow the trend that we set up there. I did it alone for the first six/seven years, until at one point I had a seminar with forty people.
Minke:
Yes, that’s a lot.
Hennie:
I didn't feel comfortable with that. I found I didn't enjoy that. Not for myself, but also not for the people who attended. It is difficult to divide the attention between so many people. Rudi, a colleague and friend of mine who I know from the club had already told me once that he would like to come along if I ever needed someone. We share our passion for dogs and have similar ideas about training.
Minke:
That’s great.
Hennie:
From that moment on we started doing it together. I went alone to Brazil once more, to the police force in Sao Paolo, and we went to […] together. During that time I also went to the Czech Republic alone, but that was before Rudi came to join me. Now we actually only do seminars together. It's great fun. I enjoy working with people and dogs, that combination, and teaching people something. In America I always ask them not to treat me as their competitor. I'm not like that. Everything I know I am willing to share. I have no secrets. I would like to pass on the knowledge I have to people. If someone doesn't want to hear it, that's okay as well. That is also part of it. I say that to colleagues too. Pick out what you can use.
Patrick:
What makes our work so enjoyable do you think? I understand the feeling a bit, but it is sometimes difficult to explain to people who aren’t part of that world. In this case, to go to America to give a seminar… Only thinking about it makes me jump up and down like a kid in a candy store, I like doing such things a lot. What makes it so much fun for you to do?
Hennie:
I like going to America. I wouldn't do it for the money alone, but I really enjoy it. It is also a really nice country to go on holiday. We regularly combine it with a week or two of vacation with our wives. That's very enjoyable. But what I like the most is that you have such enthusiastic people there, who want to learn so much but who aren’t really able to learn anything from others there. In America they don't allow each other much in that area. There are very few people in there willing to help and support each other.
Minke: In this area especially you mean?
Hennie:
Yes. Those guys learn everything they know from books and seminars. That's just a shame. I don't think you can actually learn much from that. In the time I did those seminars alone, Jeff Meyer also invited me to talk on the Hits. That is a very large conference with different types of speakers, attended by about a thousand to fifteen hundred people. I went to New York to have a look first. I don't really like events on such a large scale.
Minke:
Yes, it’s very big.
Hennie:
Yes, I'm not very much into that. On invitation I came to have a look together with Craig, that comrade of mine there. During the day we went to see some of the speakers at Hits. The conference was finished around 4 p.m., so then I went with him to practice with a dog in a park somewhere in New York.
(Laughing)
Minke:
That’s amazing!
Hennie
There were a few other policemen who joined, and also went to train for a while. At one point we just had a group of people watching what we were doing with our dogs.
Patrick:
That’s great.
Hennie: Until it got dark…
(Laughing)
Then everyone went home. One of the nice things there is that people are so enthusiastic. They really want to acquire the knowledge you have on offer.
Patrick:
Isn't that great?
Hennie:
Yes. The feedback you get back is also very nice.
Minke:
Yes, people’s appreciation.
Hennie:
I used to be able to speak German fluently, now I do basically everything in English. If I go to Germany now I would have to think about what to say.
Minke:
Oh yeah? How funny.
Hennie:
I didn’t have that before. Now I really have to switch gears if I need to speak German. Every day I received emails from colleagues asking if the dogs were doing well and if I could give them advice on certain matters. I loved that aspect of it.
Patrick:
That’s amazing!
Hennie:
I'll keep doing that as long as I enjoy it. And Rudi has the same thing. It's quite intensive, but it's a lot of fun to do.
Patrick: How was it received in the Netherlands that you did that? In general and in your work and the sports association you’re a member of?
Hennie:
I had made sure to inform my boss and our management right from the start. They were very positive about it. They liked that I did that. I did that on my own time as I didn't want my work for the police to get in the way. What I did was a private thing. That also meant it wasn't perceived as competition by my boss. I didn't have any problems with it because I was open and honest about it straight away.
Patrick:
And the people in your environment, such as the other members of your KNPV club, how did they view you doing this kind of thing?
Hennie:
They like it. Dogs from our club now also regularly go to America because of the contacts I have. One of the buyers is the boy who arranges the things related to the seminars for me. He buys dogs from the club on a large scale and sells them to the police organizations there. I've already sent three or four dogs there myself. I think that's great and it's great for the club too. It also motivates people to properly train their dogs.
Minke:
To go back to Hits, what did you think of that?
Hennie:
What I thought of that… I'm not much of a theoretical person. I don't like that very much. I went, but after those three days I told him that it wasn’t for me and that he didn't have to invite me again.
Minke:
I understand. But is it just theory? Are they all speakers only talking?
Hennie:
Yes, all kinds of speakers give presentations there that last about an hour, often supported by short videos clips or PowerPoints. Topics covered include the Teletac, basic dressage, learning the recall... All theoretical. To do that alone, I didn’t think that was for me. In 2016, Jeff Meyer asked me again. Then Ruud offered to do it together so the two of us could take turns. We did that for about two years, but after that I was completely fed up with it.
(Laughter)
It's really not for me, and Ruud had the same. We liked doing it for two years, but we're not going to do it anymore. It’s just not for us. What I do like is the contacts there. I still speak to some people regularly. Justin for example, who is also an American. There are so many people I met there. I really enjoy talking to them and discussing certain things, but I don't like teaching only theory. I'm not a person for that.
Minke:
No, you're more of a practical person.
Hennie:
Yes, what I like is doing it with people. Helping people work with dogs. I like showing people what they can do with a dog. I don’t like what you see a lot in those Hits conferences, people who bring their own dog only to show others how good they are. That's not who I am.
Minke:
I understand. That’s something we see a lot.
Hennie:
It’s a bit in the American culture as well.
Minke:
Yes, right?
Hennie:
Yes, very much. I sometimes see things there of which I think: “Why are you doing that?”. It would be the same as when I, for example, take over a dog from a colleague who has problems with it, and that dog does perfectly well with me. How do you think that would come across to that colleague?
Minke:
No, that doesn’t feel right.
Hennie:
Not at all. It will make him feel miserable. That’s why I never do that. I will never take over a dog from someone to show them how it’s done. I wouldn't have wanted anyone to do that to me in the past either. I would have felt miserable too. But that is something that happens a lot in America. People sometimes act like if to say; "I'll show you how it’s done."
Minke:
Yes, exactly…
Hennie:
I can’t stand that. That’s not who I am.
Minke:
Yes. Unfortunately, we have to wrap up a bit, but I'm curious Hennie, because you said four more months… What comes next?
Hennie:
I have grandchildren that I adore and with whom I spend a lot of time. It’s a great joy for me to be able to do that. Additionally, I live on a farm in the countryside where there’s always enough to do.
Minke:
(Laughing) Yes, I’m sure there is.
Hennie:
I won’t get bored there. I'm still doing a bit of renovation but that's almost done now. In my time off I like to do sports. I do that three times a week now. Soon I will also be able to do that during the day, then I no longer have to do it in the evening anymore. You probably recognize that Patrick. That's difficult now. At the moment, I only have time for it in the evenings and I just think that's a shame. I'd rather be with my wife then. Despite the fact that I always exercised a lot, I did have a heart attack. Nevertheless, I know how important exercise is to you and that you should continue doing it. Another hobby of mine is working with dogs of course, I'm not going to give that up. I like it too much for that. I really enjoy having another young puppy and training it. Not just for the KNPV alone, I will continue to do that, but I also enjoy raising a dog for a year/fourteen months, preparing it and then selling it to America or the police here. Which doesn't really matter to me. It is nice to see what comes of such a dog after you have given it away. Many of my dogs went to the KNPV and to […], and they all ended up as service dogs for the police. The people who have worked with them are all colleagues. It is very nice to see how well they do and how much success colleagues have with them, especially when they come to you later to ask if you might have another dog for them. I think that’s great.
Patrick:
You get to take a lot of pride in your job.
Hennie:
Yes, I do.
Minke:
And all your knowledge and skills, everything you brought to the table here, where does that go? How will that be consolidated?
Hennie:
I honestly don’t know. That remains difficult. There will probably be someone else to take my place and he or she might do things differently.
Minke:
Certainly.
Hennie:
There's nothing wrong with that in itself. There are more ways to Rome, but I hope that the colleagues who work here have learned something from me that they can take with them on the streets. That is the most important thing to me. Fortunately, that’s also the feedback I often get from colleagues, that they still remember a lot of the things I taught them. I really believe that.
Minke:
I think so too. I've been here a few times now and seen you at work a few times and I'm convinced that some of the things you taught will stick with people. It’s just that I am always so afraid that when people like you leave their profession, so much knowledge will get lost. That's a particular concern of mine, I don't know why, that's just what it is.
Hennie:
It will never be completely lost. Of course it is a concern of mine too. You mustn't forget that when I stop in an few months, I will have been with the police for 45 years of which 36 years with the dogs.
Minke:
Yes, that’s a long time.
Hennie:
It is. I worked on the streets for eight/nine years and did other things but the rest of the time I spent with the dogs. I became a dog handler first, then a part-time instructor, and then a full-time instructor. That touches your heart. It remains a passion of mine and I try to pass on that passion to young people. I have a lot of young people in the group at the moment and I think that's wonderful. I like to give them assignments and things to do at home. And of course the next time they come back I will want to see what they've done. Then I can see that they really have been working on it. If you see that, you can be sure that they will take some of what they’ve learned with them in the future. They won’t forget that anymore. I truly believe in that and it is what I hear back from them as well. My father used to say that he was fortunate to be able to work with young people. I notice that I feel that way myself too, you remain much more passionate about what you do. You don't get bogged down in old age as easily.
Minke:
No, in the role of teacher or instructor that’s something you will come across often; that you have to pass your knowledge on to younger people. I have met your students and I am convinced that some of the things you taught them really stuck with them.
Hennie:
Yes, I'm sure. There are already a few young colleagues who would like to become instructors themselves. I think it will all be fine, but I don’t know what things will be like in the future. Are the police even going to continue using dogs? I think the search dogs will continue to exist, but whether the surveillance dogs will also continue to be used by the police…
Minke:
Yes, that's a subject we haven't really touched on here. It might not be wise to do that now.
Hennie:
That's not necessary, we don't have a grip on that anyway. We don't have any insight into that, so that's difficult, but I do have my doubts about that. I am very honest about that.
Minke:
Yes, I think all three of us are a little worried about that in our own way. Let's just hope for the best.
Hennie:
I hope so too.
Minke:
Anyway, that is a subject that we could dwell on for a very long time, about what would and wouldn’t be right to do. Unfortunately, we don't have time for that right now. I do hope we will see you again in the future. I suspect so, but you never know (laughing). Hennie, it was an honor for me to be able to interview you. I enjoyed our conversation very much. What about you Patrick?
Patrick:
I find it very inspiring. I think it’s incredibly admirable that you have been doing this work with such passion for 36 years. I have also experienced instructors who after 15/20 years lost that passion somewhat and tended to get stuck in their own way of doing things. What I like about you is that you remain critical despite your knowledge. That you continue to look critically at people, including yourself, and that you continue to learn from others. Unfortunately, you can't see that on the podcast, but what I really like is the sparkle in your eyes when you talk about what you do.
Minke:
Yes!
Patrick:
Even after 36 years, your eyes are still sparkling.
Hennie:
Like I said before, this is a passion of mine, and it will remain to be so. People sometimes ask me if I will stop with the dogs too when I quit. But I can't do that, that's my whole life. I can't be without a dog. My whole family revolved around dogs. My children don't know any better, my wife doesn't know any better… I won't stop working with dogs. I like it way too much to do that. I also continue to enjoy talking to people who are crazy about dogs too, or who have a passion for dogs. I would like to do more with that, but we’ll see how things turn out first.
Patrick:
Personally, I want to thank you for having this conversation with us. It has been very inspiring to talk to you. You have always been an inspiration to me, thank you for that. And I certainly hope to see you again in the future.
Hennie:
Thank you. I'll come again sometime.
Minke:
Thank you Hennie.
Hennie:
You’re welcome.